Apple sued for violations of both design patents and tech patents. Apple won that Masimo's design infringes on Apple's design patents, for which they only asked for $250. Apple lost the other technology patent infringement parts of the case, for which they were asking for an injunction against Masimo selling their watches.
> Apple's attorneys told the court the "ultimate purpose" of its lawsuit was not money, but to win an injunction against sales of Masimo's smartwatches after an infringement ruling.
But on this point, they lost. $250 is the statutory minimum in the US for infringement. Apple did not successfully win an injunction, which was what they really wanted.
Interesting, I figured now they're going for an injunction, now that they have the ruling, no?
I don't think you can get a jury ruling then immediately ask for an injunction with the same judge and all
Fwiw I'm a bit confused overall, it seems like either Apple is full on Baghdad Bob'ing or there's still an injunction to go for. More I think about, it's probably A :p
Apple sued for infringement of their design patents, for Masimo’s old watches and chargers, and asked for $250 in damages. They won that set of claims, meaning Masimo’s old watches and chargers infringe.
Masimo’s current products did not infringe, and Apple tried to sue on the basis that they infringed their technical/utility patents. On this set of claims, the jury disagreed, and the damages Apple was asking for there was injunctive relief against Masimo’s current products (aka taking them off the market). They lost that. They can't go for an injunction since the jury ruled that Masimo's current products do not infringe.
That’s a separate case (Masimo suing Apple) which is still ongoing. Apple countersued to try to block Masimo from releasing their own smartwatch, this article refers to this case.
Yes, but not because of this specific verdict. This was a (failed) attempt to impact the ability of Masimo to sell its own smartwatch, in which case Masimo would've lost the ability to continue blocking imports of Apple Watches with an enabled pulse oximetry feature in the U.S.
The CEO has resigned as of a month ago (or forced out rather)
The primary investors seem quite upset with his handling of this. Rumours are that he was hostile to a buyout but in his lawsuit has also invalidated a lot of their own patents.
So it’s a pyrrhic victory at best for him. I assume the new CEO will be expected to look to play better and reduce the damage.
The CEO wasn’t. Rumors were he was single-handedly refusing to listen to any offer, which is why (supposedly) he was pushed out recently.
Somewhat surprising a deal wasn’t made after that. Perhaps Apple though this would strengthen their bargaining position and was waiting to see how this would go.
With this case it seems like Apple is just going to take them to court again and again until the well runs dry and Masimo’s patents can be purchased for pennies on the dollar.
https://www.masimoconsumer.com/
Their products feel simultaneously like knock offs and 5 years old all at once.
Seems like a good outcome. Patent trolls should occasional suffer some consequences of their actions (I know that Masimo sells actual products but they pulse oximetry patent is just silly...)
Masimo basically came up with the idea of how to do it accurately long before anyone else right? Is that really trolling? I don’t recall the details but I remember thinking they actually had a legitimate claim.
They actually had the majority of their patents invalidated during the legal process.
The one patent they have remaining (that is what Apple are dealing with) is on a very particular sensor configuration not the concept or technology in general beyond that.
It looks like Apple's claims were related to the charging of the watch itself... Which brings me to my question of why not use standard USB Type-C charging ports instead of some proprietary charging method? It seems like from the very beginning it is a poor choice, on both parties, to charge a device using a non-standard charging device.
It makes sense to have wearables like watches and smart rings charge via wireless inductive charging, because the physical space of even a USB-C port inside a watch is quite limiting for the electronics that can be placed inside the watch, and physically wouldn't fit inside of a ring.
Wireless inductive charging also allows for a (more) sealed case design, which is helpful for a device that will almost certainly encounter moisture in normal use cases.
I can keep my phone somewhere dry when it's raining, I've never thought to take off my watch when it rains.
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Apple sued for violations of both design patents and tech patents. Apple won that Masimo's design infringes on Apple's design patents, for which they only asked for $250. Apple lost the other technology patent infringement parts of the case, for which they were asking for an injunction against Masimo selling their watches.
To be clear, Masimo’s old (and previously discontinued) design infringes on Apple’s design patents, not the one presently on the market.
In case the point is missed: Apple asked for $250, stating their cases was on principle. The courts aren’t slighting Apple.
> Apple's attorneys told the court the "ultimate purpose" of its lawsuit was not money, but to win an injunction against sales of Masimo's smartwatches after an infringement ruling.
But on this point, they lost. $250 is the statutory minimum in the US for infringement. Apple did not successfully win an injunction, which was what they really wanted.
But now someone at Apple can treat themselves to a very nice dinner.
$250 for a nice dinner? In this economy?
That'd be enough for a large cup of coffee, maybe even a bagel.
In America 2024, $250 dinner eats you!
Interesting, I figured now they're going for an injunction, now that they have the ruling, no?
I don't think you can get a jury ruling then immediately ask for an injunction with the same judge and all
Fwiw I'm a bit confused overall, it seems like either Apple is full on Baghdad Bob'ing or there's still an injunction to go for. More I think about, it's probably A :p
Apple sued for infringement of their design patents, for Masimo’s old watches and chargers, and asked for $250 in damages. They won that set of claims, meaning Masimo’s old watches and chargers infringe.
Masimo’s current products did not infringe, and Apple tried to sue on the basis that they infringed their technical/utility patents. On this set of claims, the jury disagreed, and the damages Apple was asking for there was injunctive relief against Masimo’s current products (aka taking them off the market). They lost that. They can't go for an injunction since the jury ruled that Masimo's current products do not infringe.
Well, no.
They didn't say it was on principle, they said they were going for a ruling so they could then apply for an injunction.
They got a judgement on a discontinued charger, which makes it seem unlikely they'll be able to go for an injunction on today's watches.
Does this mean watches will get their blood oxygen sensors back? The news hasn’t yet seemed to clear this up for me
That’s a separate case (Masimo suing Apple) which is still ongoing. Apple countersued to try to block Masimo from releasing their own smartwatch, this article refers to this case.
Right. Quite possibly to have a better bargaining position in negotiations to be allowed to turn that feature back on.
Interesting to see what happens next. I never thought the original injunction would go into place, let alone be allowed to go on this long.
Yes, but not because of this specific verdict. This was a (failed) attempt to impact the ability of Masimo to sell its own smartwatch, in which case Masimo would've lost the ability to continue blocking imports of Apple Watches with an enabled pulse oximetry feature in the U.S.
No
Small discussion (13 points, 17 hours ago, 5 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41950858
Title really doesn't do the article justice. There's a BIT more going on there than just the $250 that Apple got.
http://archive.today/tgTd1
Can someone please explain why Apple doesn't just buy Masimo in a fight like this? Their market cap is like 5% of Apple's annual profit...
Masimo's CEO and board have to approve the purchase, but it appears that Masimo isn't interested in being bought.
The CEO has resigned as of a month ago (or forced out rather)
The primary investors seem quite upset with his handling of this. Rumours are that he was hostile to a buyout but in his lawsuit has also invalidated a lot of their own patents.
So it’s a pyrrhic victory at best for him. I assume the new CEO will be expected to look to play better and reduce the damage.
The CEO wasn’t. Rumors were he was single-handedly refusing to listen to any offer, which is why (supposedly) he was pushed out recently.
Somewhat surprising a deal wasn’t made after that. Perhaps Apple though this would strengthen their bargaining position and was waiting to see how this would go.
so that the next company won't sue
Can you convert $250 to number of apple smart watches?
Not sure if this request is serious, but it’s approx 0.5 Apple smart watches
With this case it seems like Apple is just going to take them to court again and again until the well runs dry and Masimo’s patents can be purchased for pennies on the dollar. https://www.masimoconsumer.com/ Their products feel simultaneously like knock offs and 5 years old all at once.
Seems like a good outcome. Patent trolls should occasional suffer some consequences of their actions (I know that Masimo sells actual products but they pulse oximetry patent is just silly...)
Masimo basically came up with the idea of how to do it accurately long before anyone else right? Is that really trolling? I don’t recall the details but I remember thinking they actually had a legitimate claim.
They actually had the majority of their patents invalidated during the legal process.
The one patent they have remaining (that is what Apple are dealing with) is on a very particular sensor configuration not the concept or technology in general beyond that.
Any reason that Apple just doesn’t buy the company outright? Market cap is only 7.5B.
It looks like Apple's claims were related to the charging of the watch itself... Which brings me to my question of why not use standard USB Type-C charging ports instead of some proprietary charging method? It seems like from the very beginning it is a poor choice, on both parties, to charge a device using a non-standard charging device.
It makes sense to have wearables like watches and smart rings charge via wireless inductive charging, because the physical space of even a USB-C port inside a watch is quite limiting for the electronics that can be placed inside the watch, and physically wouldn't fit inside of a ring.
Wireless inductive charging also allows for a (more) sealed case design, which is helpful for a device that will almost certainly encounter moisture in normal use cases.
I can keep my phone somewhere dry when it's raining, I've never thought to take off my watch when it rains.
Even just sweat would be a problem, especially with fitness being such a big selling point.
Ye it's a big issue with Garmin's pogo-pin charge port. The pins corrode, and for some unlucky people, create quite serious skin irritation.
Why do hackernews people share links behind paywalls and pop-up's that want me to disable ad blocker ?
In every single press release Masimo complains apple hired away staff.
Um, you are in California. There are no non-competes.
You just are confessing every single time you can’t retain talented staff.
[dead]
Suggested Title change: s/wins $250/wins only $250.00/
That'd minimal editorializing - while making it quite clear that there is no missing 'K', let alone missing 'M'.
Email the mods (footer contact link) if you’d like to see the title changed; make your case, or link your comment here, and they may agree with you. Otherwise they probably won’t see this comment (whether it’s upvoted or not).
A quarter of a cost of monitor stand.
It's already old news at this point. The major damage you highlighted is already done.
"wins token $250"